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	<title>Comments on: The Cost of Freedom As We Know It</title>
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		<title>By: Jamie Dunford</title>
		<link>http://www.productiveflourishing.com/the-cost-of-freedom-as-we-know-it/#comment-3238</link>
		<dc:creator>Jamie Dunford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 May 2009 16:56:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://265888668#comment-3238</guid>
		<description>&quot;There are only so many times you can see a tank with an American flag on it roll down your street before you start to get resentful.&quot; This, I think, is the crux of the matter. The military often show up against our will whether we want them there or not, whereas I have previously accepted and perhaps even asked for the police to patrol my neighbourhood.

&lt;abbr&gt;&lt;em&gt;Jamie Dunfords last blog post..&lt;a href=&quot;http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/Ittybiz/~3/K6R5FcYEdYw/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;How To Make Your Blog Not Suck So Damn Much&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/abbr&gt;&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;There are only so many times you can see a tank with an American flag on it roll down your street before you start to get resentful.&#8221; This, I think, is the crux of the matter. The military often show up against our will whether we want them there or not, whereas I have previously accepted and perhaps even asked for the police to patrol my neighbourhood.</p>
<p><abbr><em>Jamie Dunfords last blog post..<a href="http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/Ittybiz/~3/K6R5FcYEdYw/" rel="nofollow">How To Make Your Blog Not Suck So Damn Much</a></em></abbr></p>
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		<title>By: Charlie</title>
		<link>http://www.productiveflourishing.com/the-cost-of-freedom-as-we-know-it/#comment-3234</link>
		<dc:creator>Charlie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 May 2009 14:40:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://265888668#comment-3234</guid>
		<description>@Daniel: I though about talking specifically about NIMBY specifically but decided not to, but since it&#039;s on the table, I&#039;d like to point out that NIMBY mentality works even worse on the international scale as it does on the national or regional scale. The basic idea is built on an &quot;us vs. them&quot; mentality: we want the good benefit from the proposed solution, but we want someone else to pay for the benefit. We like cheap nuclear power, but don&#039;t want to live next to a nuclear power plant; let&#039;s let the poor people deal with it. We want the peace and security of a world without tyrants, but let&#039;s let someone else do the work to make sure that happens.

Unfortunately, we&#039;re all caught in that same prisoner&#039;s dilemma, and nothing happens. Until planes crash into buildings...or we have to send invasion forces to oust dictators that we empowered...or we have to send emergency aid to regions where we saw the problem coming but didn&#039;t act.

Furthermore, &quot;injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere,&quot; but let&#039;s broaden that: the violations of persons anywhere is a threat to freedom to persons everywhere.

Regarding relinquishment of self, of ego: I disagree that I&#039;m arguing that we relinquish our desires and wants. What I&#039;m saying is that we need to see that our selves are important, but that the selves of others are equally important, from a moral point of view. Our desires for freedom from oppression why just as heavily as those of the Sudanese; their requests for help should weigh the same as we would want our own.

@Jason: I agree with 100% regarding diplomacy. That should always be the first step, although in times such as the Rwandan genocide, where 800,000 people were killed in 100 days, I think there needs to be a quicker process. It&#039;s well known that a brigade of combat forces would have been able to prevent such tragic loss, but we failed to act.

@Suzanne: Thanks for piping up! You hit the nail on the head. What lies within our power to do, lies within our power not to do, and vice versa. Until our leaders face amassed pressure, they won&#039;t do anything, but the only way to amass pressure is if you and I each, individually, start doing something.

@Catherine: Thanks for your support!

@David: Great! My point was not to give so many concrete answers, but to start the conversation. If you&#039;ll be thinking about it, the regardless of whether you agree, disagree, or whatever, we&#039;re all better off.

@Jamie: Thanks. Regarding a better way to resolving conflict: before we get anywhere, we&#039;ll have to get past NIMBY, nationalism, and the idea that we don&#039;t have a right to question cultural traditions. In other words, we have to see that human rights violations are a international issue and get towards some accepted minimum standard of what counts as a basic human right. We have a long way to go, although the UN Human Rights Declaration is a really good start - too bad it&#039;s toothless.

@Felicity: Thanks for your comment. I think there will always be violence, but it&#039;s the scale of violence during warfare that I think can be eliminated. And as I said above, force should always be the last option, unless using force quickly can ensure the preservation of thousands of lives.

Unfortunately, &quot;education and humanitarian aid&quot; are not better weapons when you&#039;re talking about mass genocide, quick military coups, and so on.

I think a lot of the resentment from military occupation comes from the way we project force. There are only so many times you can see a tank with an American flag on it roll down your street before you start to get resentful. But police patrol frequently, and when they&#039;re just and fair, people see it as a sign of security, not oppression. Which is a quick way to show my point.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Daniel: I though about talking specifically about NIMBY specifically but decided not to, but since it&#8217;s on the table, I&#8217;d like to point out that NIMBY mentality works even worse on the international scale as it does on the national or regional scale. The basic idea is built on an &#8220;us vs. them&#8221; mentality: we want the good benefit from the proposed solution, but we want someone else to pay for the benefit. We like cheap nuclear power, but don&#8217;t want to live next to a nuclear power plant; let&#8217;s let the poor people deal with it. We want the peace and security of a world without tyrants, but let&#8217;s let someone else do the work to make sure that happens.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, we&#8217;re all caught in that same prisoner&#8217;s dilemma, and nothing happens. Until planes crash into buildings&#8230;or we have to send invasion forces to oust dictators that we empowered&#8230;or we have to send emergency aid to regions where we saw the problem coming but didn&#8217;t act.</p>
<p>Furthermore, &#8220;injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere,&#8221; but let&#8217;s broaden that: the violations of persons anywhere is a threat to freedom to persons everywhere.</p>
<p>Regarding relinquishment of self, of ego: I disagree that I&#8217;m arguing that we relinquish our desires and wants. What I&#8217;m saying is that we need to see that our selves are important, but that the selves of others are equally important, from a moral point of view. Our desires for freedom from oppression why just as heavily as those of the Sudanese; their requests for help should weigh the same as we would want our own.</p>
<p>@Jason: I agree with 100% regarding diplomacy. That should always be the first step, although in times such as the Rwandan genocide, where 800,000 people were killed in 100 days, I think there needs to be a quicker process. It&#8217;s well known that a brigade of combat forces would have been able to prevent such tragic loss, but we failed to act.</p>
<p>@Suzanne: Thanks for piping up! You hit the nail on the head. What lies within our power to do, lies within our power not to do, and vice versa. Until our leaders face amassed pressure, they won&#8217;t do anything, but the only way to amass pressure is if you and I each, individually, start doing something.</p>
<p>@Catherine: Thanks for your support!</p>
<p>@David: Great! My point was not to give so many concrete answers, but to start the conversation. If you&#8217;ll be thinking about it, the regardless of whether you agree, disagree, or whatever, we&#8217;re all better off.</p>
<p>@Jamie: Thanks. Regarding a better way to resolving conflict: before we get anywhere, we&#8217;ll have to get past NIMBY, nationalism, and the idea that we don&#8217;t have a right to question cultural traditions. In other words, we have to see that human rights violations are a international issue and get towards some accepted minimum standard of what counts as a basic human right. We have a long way to go, although the UN Human Rights Declaration is a really good start &#8211; too bad it&#8217;s toothless.</p>
<p>@Felicity: Thanks for your comment. I think there will always be violence, but it&#8217;s the scale of violence during warfare that I think can be eliminated. And as I said above, force should always be the last option, unless using force quickly can ensure the preservation of thousands of lives.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, &#8220;education and humanitarian aid&#8221; are not better weapons when you&#8217;re talking about mass genocide, quick military coups, and so on.</p>
<p>I think a lot of the resentment from military occupation comes from the way we project force. There are only so many times you can see a tank with an American flag on it roll down your street before you start to get resentful. But police patrol frequently, and when they&#8217;re just and fair, people see it as a sign of security, not oppression. Which is a quick way to show my point.</p>
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		<title>By: Felicity</title>
		<link>http://www.productiveflourishing.com/the-cost-of-freedom-as-we-know-it/#comment-3221</link>
		<dc:creator>Felicity</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 May 2009 21:18:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://265888668#comment-3221</guid>
		<description>I like where this is going, but I would like more specifics. How, exactly, do we need to change the way we use our force?
I have a fiance in the military and am personally not happy with him having to give up  his life for the good of the whole world, especially when there will always be violence, as you noted. I wasn&#039;t even happy even before he enlisted with our soldiers giving up their lives for stupid conflicts.
I agree, we need to think more globally and less just about our own nation, but I don&#039;t think using force is always the best way to help the whole world.  What if we sent our troops to &quot;save&quot; another nation that didn&#039;t really want to be saved?  If half of that nation resents our presence?  If they will just turn around and form their own totalitarian government?  
I think we need to use force only when necessary for our *own* defense.  For the world&#039;s problems, I think education and humanitarian aid are better &quot;weapons.&quot;  I would rather not spill our blood for problems that can only be dubiously solved, if at all, with violence.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like where this is going, but I would like more specifics. How, exactly, do we need to change the way we use our force?<br />
I have a fiance in the military and am personally not happy with him having to give up  his life for the good of the whole world, especially when there will always be violence, as you noted. I wasn&#8217;t even happy even before he enlisted with our soldiers giving up their lives for stupid conflicts.<br />
I agree, we need to think more globally and less just about our own nation, but I don&#8217;t think using force is always the best way to help the whole world.  What if we sent our troops to &#8220;save&#8221; another nation that didn&#8217;t really want to be saved?  If half of that nation resents our presence?  If they will just turn around and form their own totalitarian government?<br />
I think we need to use force only when necessary for our *own* defense.  For the world&#8217;s problems, I think education and humanitarian aid are better &#8220;weapons.&#8221;  I would rather not spill our blood for problems that can only be dubiously solved, if at all, with violence.</p>
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		<title>By: Jamie Dunford</title>
		<link>http://www.productiveflourishing.com/the-cost-of-freedom-as-we-know-it/#comment-3216</link>
		<dc:creator>Jamie Dunford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 May 2009 14:52:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://265888668#comment-3216</guid>
		<description>Wow Charlie. I have to say -- you think big. Which is awesome, because not enough people do.

I couldn&#039;t agree with you more. We as a globe are way too quick to resort to violence as a means of change, and as a result we have become almost blase about the massive number of humans lives that are destroyed as a result. We obviously need a better way of resolving conflict, but I have no idea what that way is.

Sorry, this isn&#039;t nearly what I wanted to express but I&#039;m struggling trying to figure out the next step. I&#039;d love to hear some more of your thoughts on this.

&lt;abbr&gt;&lt;em&gt;Jamie Dunfords last blog post..&lt;a href=&quot;http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/Ittybiz/~3/2HCW4YBGm7w/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;USP Lesson: Men with Pens, Part One&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/abbr&gt;&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow Charlie. I have to say &#8212; you think big. Which is awesome, because not enough people do.</p>
<p>I couldn&#8217;t agree with you more. We as a globe are way too quick to resort to violence as a means of change, and as a result we have become almost blase about the massive number of humans lives that are destroyed as a result. We obviously need a better way of resolving conflict, but I have no idea what that way is.</p>
<p>Sorry, this isn&#8217;t nearly what I wanted to express but I&#8217;m struggling trying to figure out the next step. I&#8217;d love to hear some more of your thoughts on this.</p>
<p><abbr><em>Jamie Dunfords last blog post..<a href="http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/Ittybiz/~3/2HCW4YBGm7w/" rel="nofollow">USP Lesson: Men with Pens, Part One</a></em></abbr></p>
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		<title>By: David Dittell</title>
		<link>http://www.productiveflourishing.com/the-cost-of-freedom-as-we-know-it/#comment-3200</link>
		<dc:creator>David Dittell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 May 2009 05:31:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://265888668#comment-3200</guid>
		<description>Charlie,

Thank you for sharing this; you&#039;ve raised a lot of important questions I&#039;ll be thinking of tonight, tomorrow, and on.

&lt;abbr&gt;&lt;em&gt;David Dittells last blog post..&lt;a href=&quot;http://alphabetsoupkitchen.blogspot.com/2009/05/language-detective-why-is-sunday-drive.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Language Detective: Why Is A Sunday Drive Good, But A Sunday Driver Bad?&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/abbr&gt;&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Charlie,</p>
<p>Thank you for sharing this; you&#8217;ve raised a lot of important questions I&#8217;ll be thinking of tonight, tomorrow, and on.</p>
<p><abbr><em>David Dittells last blog post..<a href="http://alphabetsoupkitchen.blogspot.com/2009/05/language-detective-why-is-sunday-drive.html" rel="nofollow">Language Detective: Why Is A Sunday Drive Good, But A Sunday Driver Bad?</a></em></abbr></p>
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		<title>By: Catherine Cantieri, Sorted</title>
		<link>http://www.productiveflourishing.com/the-cost-of-freedom-as-we-know-it/#comment-3190</link>
		<dc:creator>Catherine Cantieri, Sorted</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 May 2009 18:22:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://265888668#comment-3190</guid>
		<description>Beautiful post, Charlie. It&#039;s something we should think about year-round, but it&#039;s especially poignant right now. Thank you for your service in and out of the military.

&lt;abbr&gt;&lt;em&gt;Catherine Cantieri, Sorteds last blog post..&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.get-sorted.net/2009/05/save-the-date-howtohandlepaper-workshop-july-31.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Save the date: How-to-handle-paper workshop July 31&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/abbr&gt;&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Beautiful post, Charlie. It&#8217;s something we should think about year-round, but it&#8217;s especially poignant right now. Thank you for your service in and out of the military.</p>
<p><abbr><em>Catherine Cantieri, Sorteds last blog post..<a href="http://www.get-sorted.net/2009/05/save-the-date-howtohandlepaper-workshop-july-31.html" rel="nofollow">Save the date: How-to-handle-paper workshop July 31</a></em></abbr></p>
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		<title>By: Suzanne @ vAssistant Services</title>
		<link>http://www.productiveflourishing.com/the-cost-of-freedom-as-we-know-it/#comment-3187</link>
		<dc:creator>Suzanne @ vAssistant Services</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 May 2009 03:32:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://265888668#comment-3187</guid>
		<description>Charlie,

I don&#039;t pipe up very often over here, but I have to this time. Thank you for writing such a thoughtful post. Thank you for your service to our country, and for your service to us here on this blog.

It&#039;s easy for folks to sit at home, jaded, cynical and suspicious about those in government because far too many couldn&#039;t be bothered to go vote, one way or another, therefore the &quot;idiots in office&quot; are not of their choosing. What those same folks do not realize is they cast their vote with their apathy, so they are culpable, just the same. 

It&#039;s encouraging to hear you and others say that military service makes you want to look for ways to temper the willingness to fight with the willingness to pursue peace. That, to me, is the best way to celebrate Memorial Day.

Thanks again.

&lt;abbr&gt;&lt;em&gt;Suzanne @ vAssistant Servicess last blog post..&lt;a href=&quot;http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/vAssistantServices/~3/8J0YZO1_HV8/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Have You Gotten Your Report Card yet?&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/abbr&gt;&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Charlie,</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t pipe up very often over here, but I have to this time. Thank you for writing such a thoughtful post. Thank you for your service to our country, and for your service to us here on this blog.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s easy for folks to sit at home, jaded, cynical and suspicious about those in government because far too many couldn&#8217;t be bothered to go vote, one way or another, therefore the &#8220;idiots in office&#8221; are not of their choosing. What those same folks do not realize is they cast their vote with their apathy, so they are culpable, just the same. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s encouraging to hear you and others say that military service makes you want to look for ways to temper the willingness to fight with the willingness to pursue peace. That, to me, is the best way to celebrate Memorial Day.</p>
<p>Thanks again.</p>
<p><abbr><em>Suzanne @ vAssistant Servicess last blog post..<a href="http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/vAssistantServices/~3/8J0YZO1_HV8/" rel="nofollow">Have You Gotten Your Report Card yet?</a></em></abbr></p>
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		<title>By: Jason D Barr</title>
		<link>http://www.productiveflourishing.com/the-cost-of-freedom-as-we-know-it/#comment-3185</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason D Barr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 May 2009 21:41:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://265888668#comment-3185</guid>
		<description>As one vet to another, Charlie, thanks for your service.  I have personally found my convictions radically altered by the time I spent in the service, and am much less likely to be in favor of my country projecting force of any kind (to wage war or keep peace) in any circumstance.  

While I&#039;m in favor of having a deterant in place for situations where force is the only thing that&#039;s understood, I would much rather use the carrot of diplomacy than that stick.  And, as Daniel pointed out, it would be nice to consider things without the NIMBY effect.  What&#039;s good for humankind, regardless of where they reside.

&lt;abbr&gt;&lt;em&gt;Jason D Barrs last blog post..&lt;a href=&quot;http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/Ldcl/~3/r1qcncCU4Kc/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Goals&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/abbr&gt;&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As one vet to another, Charlie, thanks for your service.  I have personally found my convictions radically altered by the time I spent in the service, and am much less likely to be in favor of my country projecting force of any kind (to wage war or keep peace) in any circumstance.  </p>
<p>While I&#8217;m in favor of having a deterant in place for situations where force is the only thing that&#8217;s understood, I would much rather use the carrot of diplomacy than that stick.  And, as Daniel pointed out, it would be nice to consider things without the NIMBY effect.  What&#8217;s good for humankind, regardless of where they reside.</p>
<p><abbr><em>Jason D Barrs last blog post..<a href="http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/Ldcl/~3/r1qcncCU4Kc/" rel="nofollow">Goals</a></em></abbr></p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Edlen</title>
		<link>http://www.productiveflourishing.com/the-cost-of-freedom-as-we-know-it/#comment-3184</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Edlen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 May 2009 19:35:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://265888668#comment-3184</guid>
		<description>Very thoughtful post!

Unfortunately I think you&#039;re up against the NIMBY effect. Look at the outrage about the idea of the relocation of Gitmo prisoners to U.S. soil. Americans on whole like to mentally separate what&#039;s going on within the U.S. from without. German nationalism led to Hitler&#039;s command and its fallout. Our nationalism led to the use of atomic force after Pearl Harbor. It&#039;s powerful stuff.

And it filters down to neighbor vs. neighbor, even sibling against sibling. What you&#039;re ultimately heading towards is a relinquishment of self, of ego. I&#039;m not sure instinctually if that&#039;s in the best interest of Life here on earth as it exists.

Of course I sign off every blog post typing &quot;Peace.&quot; If it comes from within, if all find acceptance of the perfection of self and the peace that comes from that, then external peace might follow symptomatically. The Universe reflects us.

Peace.

&lt;abbr&gt;&lt;em&gt;Daniel Edlens last blog post..&lt;a href=&quot;http://vinylart.blogspot.com/2009/05/can-you-dig-it.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Can You Dig It?&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/abbr&gt;&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very thoughtful post!</p>
<p>Unfortunately I think you&#8217;re up against the NIMBY effect. Look at the outrage about the idea of the relocation of Gitmo prisoners to U.S. soil. Americans on whole like to mentally separate what&#8217;s going on within the U.S. from without. German nationalism led to Hitler&#8217;s command and its fallout. Our nationalism led to the use of atomic force after Pearl Harbor. It&#8217;s powerful stuff.</p>
<p>And it filters down to neighbor vs. neighbor, even sibling against sibling. What you&#8217;re ultimately heading towards is a relinquishment of self, of ego. I&#8217;m not sure instinctually if that&#8217;s in the best interest of Life here on earth as it exists.</p>
<p>Of course I sign off every blog post typing &#8220;Peace.&#8221; If it comes from within, if all find acceptance of the perfection of self and the peace that comes from that, then external peace might follow symptomatically. The Universe reflects us.</p>
<p>Peace.</p>
<p><abbr><em>Daniel Edlens last blog post..<a href="http://vinylart.blogspot.com/2009/05/can-you-dig-it.html" rel="nofollow">Can You Dig It?</a></em></abbr></p>
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