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	<title>Comments on: Letter from Lincoln (In Memoriam of Dr. King)</title>
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	<description>The Art of Meaningful Action</description>
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		<title>By: glbtq - StartTags.com</title>
		<link>http://www.productiveflourishing.com/letter-from-lincoln-in-memoriam-of-dr-king/#comment-6730</link>
		<dc:creator>glbtq - StartTags.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jan 2010 22:56:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.productiveflourishing.com/?p=1270#comment-6730</guid>
		<description>[...] youth share some unique characteristics that other populations of young people generally do not. ...Letter from Lincoln (In Memoriam of Dr. King)It seems as good of a time as any to extend the ideas of the Letter and the call for Change that has [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] youth share some unique characteristics that other populations of young people generally do not. &#8230;Letter from Lincoln (In Memoriam of Dr. King)It seems as good of a time as any to extend the ideas of the Letter and the call for Change that has [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Twitching Grey Matter &#183; Breaking Your Own Rules</title>
		<link>http://www.productiveflourishing.com/letter-from-lincoln-in-memoriam-of-dr-king/#comment-2348</link>
		<dc:creator>Twitching Grey Matter &#183; Breaking Your Own Rules</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jan 2009 15:21:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.productiveflourishing.com/?p=1270#comment-2348</guid>
		<description>[...] of Ittybiz tossed up a link to an article that sounded promising. She told everyone to go read Charlie Gilkey&#8217;s latest blog post. Because Naomi&#8217;s one sharp implement, I headed [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] of Ittybiz tossed up a link to an article that sounded promising. She told everyone to go read Charlie Gilkey&#8217;s latest blog post. Because Naomi&#8217;s one sharp implement, I headed [...]</p>
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		<title>By: christy</title>
		<link>http://www.productiveflourishing.com/letter-from-lincoln-in-memoriam-of-dr-king/#comment-2347</link>
		<dc:creator>christy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jan 2009 13:41:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.productiveflourishing.com/?p=1270#comment-2347</guid>
		<description>You&#039;re right, I wasn&#039;t trying to highlight an &quot;us vs them&quot; dynamic, but the truth is that we&#039;ve reached the point in this struggle that that&#039;s where we are.

I have a wonderful mentor who is a retired Episcopal bishop. He was in the room with MLK and others, planning next steps in the early 60s. He has told me that he knew the Civil Rights Movement would create tangible change when it reached the point that even &quot;white guys&quot; like him were included in the &quot;them&quot; category by those opposed to the Movement. 

As soon as those who were not Black, who were not among the oppressed were lumped together with those who were, it meant that things had shifted. That the lines that had been so clear, were now blurred.

I think that&#039;s what was - unconsciously - in my mind when I wrote the last bit. I see this line blurring whenever someone like you writes something like this. This gives me hope. Real, tangible hope.

It&#039;s a good thing.

&lt;abbr&gt;&lt;em&gt;christys last blog post..&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.twitchinggreymatter.com/?p=22&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Rumi and President Obama&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/abbr&gt;&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;re right, I wasn&#8217;t trying to highlight an &#8220;us vs them&#8221; dynamic, but the truth is that we&#8217;ve reached the point in this struggle that that&#8217;s where we are.</p>
<p>I have a wonderful mentor who is a retired Episcopal bishop. He was in the room with MLK and others, planning next steps in the early 60s. He has told me that he knew the Civil Rights Movement would create tangible change when it reached the point that even &#8220;white guys&#8221; like him were included in the &#8220;them&#8221; category by those opposed to the Movement. </p>
<p>As soon as those who were not Black, who were not among the oppressed were lumped together with those who were, it meant that things had shifted. That the lines that had been so clear, were now blurred.</p>
<p>I think that&#8217;s what was &#8211; unconsciously &#8211; in my mind when I wrote the last bit. I see this line blurring whenever someone like you writes something like this. This gives me hope. Real, tangible hope.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s a good thing.</p>
<p><abbr><em>christys last blog post..<a href="http://www.twitchinggreymatter.com/?p=22" rel="nofollow">Rumi and President Obama</a></em></abbr></p>
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		<title>By: Pace</title>
		<link>http://www.productiveflourishing.com/letter-from-lincoln-in-memoriam-of-dr-king/#comment-2346</link>
		<dc:creator>Pace</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jan 2009 00:41:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.productiveflourishing.com/?p=1270#comment-2346</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Charlie.  It makes me happy and proud to know that you&#039;re standing up for me and mine.  I appreciate your friendship and your support.

&lt;abbr&gt;&lt;em&gt;Paces last blog post..&lt;a href=&quot;http://paceandkyeli.com/2009/01/14/book-bonanza-wednesdays-chapter-1-the-usual-error/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Introducing Book Bonanza Wednesdays!  Chapter 1: The usual error&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/abbr&gt;&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Charlie.  It makes me happy and proud to know that you&#8217;re standing up for me and mine.  I appreciate your friendship and your support.</p>
<p><abbr><em>Paces last blog post..<a href="http://paceandkyeli.com/2009/01/14/book-bonanza-wednesdays-chapter-1-the-usual-error/" rel="nofollow">Introducing Book Bonanza Wednesdays!  Chapter 1: The usual error</a></em></abbr></p>
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		<title>By: Charlie</title>
		<link>http://www.productiveflourishing.com/letter-from-lincoln-in-memoriam-of-dr-king/#comment-2345</link>
		<dc:creator>Charlie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jan 2009 00:14:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.productiveflourishing.com/?p=1270#comment-2345</guid>
		<description>@fraggin_target: Clearly, you&#039;re not trolling, so I&#039;ll pause and answer this comment.

You remember that day - somewhere around the fifth grade for me - where someone presented you the option of being attracted to boys or girls? Oh, the dilemma! Strong but stinky boys or soft but smart and good-smelling girls. What to do, what to do!

Er...wait, that didn&#039;t happen. Just as I didn&#039;t choose to like chocolate, the color blue, or a myriad of other things that we really never chose.

Furthermore, it&#039;s only patriarchal societies where there is an issue with &quot;homosexuality.&quot; It turns out the sexual orientation is on a spectrum, and it&#039;s a particular ideology (I wonder which one?) that has idealized sexual orientation into the categories we&#039;re discussing.

Lastly, I find it odd that you including &quot;economic status&quot; as something we don&#039;t choose, when the American dream is built on us choosing a different economic future than the one we&#039;ve been dealt. I can make myself poor far easier than I can make myself be sexually attracted to another male.

@Dylan: Thanks! I&#039;m glad you&#039;re sharing it.

@Mynde: Your sexuality is part of what makes you the beautiful woman that you are. You need not look anywhere else - within you lies all the strength you need. You&#039;ll see.

I&#039;ve never understood the black community on this one except by understanding it through the lens of religion. That&#039;s when I&#039;m being charitable - and I am most of the time. Otherwise it&#039;s just bigoted homophobia.

@Amanda: I appreciate what you&#039;re saying, but as we saw today with the Inauguration, words have power. Writing them and speaking them is powerful. But action is required, as well.

@Steve: I&#039;ll defer to Jamie on this one, since he said pretty much what I was going to say. I do appreciate you leaving a reasoned dissent, though I disagree with your conclusion or premises.

@Sonia: Thanks. I think it&#039;s harder a harder struggle in some ways. You can&#039;t hide your race or gender, and no one expects that you should. There&#039;s absolutely nothing (behaviorally) you can do about it. 

But you can hide your sexuality, and there are many people that think you should - presuming it&#039;s not the right one. So we see so many unhappy people living lives that don&#039;t fit them just because they can. And they replace the hurt that society would given them with the hurt they give themselves.

It is only a matter of time before this is no longer an issue. But there&#039;s still a lot of struggle between now and that time.

@Jamie: Thanks so much for addressing this for me. You nailed it.

I actually don&#039;t think his points took away - I think they proved the point. Would Dr. King seriously want people to live in a world in which they hate themselves because we refuse to recognize their humanity? If so - then I&#039;d have to accuse him of bad faith; he&#039;d be on the wrong side of history. Who knows? But I have hope that he&#039;d live up to his own words.

@Christy: Thanks for coming here to comment and being here with us. And the only reason I drew out the me/you distinction was to get the &quot;he only cares because he&#039;s gay&quot; thing out of the way quickly.

We both love. We both hurt. We both want to uplift our fellow beings. We&#039;re far more &quot;we&quot; than we are &quot;me and you&quot; in everything that matters.

p.s. I know you didn&#039;t intend to draw that line, but I&#039;m glad you did, since I didn&#039;t say that our common humanity unites us more than our different sexuality divides us in the essay. I guess I can change that.

@Lisa: Thanks! I always appreciate compliments, but especially from talented writers. Yes, I mean the both of you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@fraggin_target: Clearly, you&#8217;re not trolling, so I&#8217;ll pause and answer this comment.</p>
<p>You remember that day &#8211; somewhere around the fifth grade for me &#8211; where someone presented you the option of being attracted to boys or girls? Oh, the dilemma! Strong but stinky boys or soft but smart and good-smelling girls. What to do, what to do!</p>
<p>Er&#8230;wait, that didn&#8217;t happen. Just as I didn&#8217;t choose to like chocolate, the color blue, or a myriad of other things that we really never chose.</p>
<p>Furthermore, it&#8217;s only patriarchal societies where there is an issue with &#8220;homosexuality.&#8221; It turns out the sexual orientation is on a spectrum, and it&#8217;s a particular ideology (I wonder which one?) that has idealized sexual orientation into the categories we&#8217;re discussing.</p>
<p>Lastly, I find it odd that you including &#8220;economic status&#8221; as something we don&#8217;t choose, when the American dream is built on us choosing a different economic future than the one we&#8217;ve been dealt. I can make myself poor far easier than I can make myself be sexually attracted to another male.</p>
<p>@Dylan: Thanks! I&#8217;m glad you&#8217;re sharing it.</p>
<p>@Mynde: Your sexuality is part of what makes you the beautiful woman that you are. You need not look anywhere else &#8211; within you lies all the strength you need. You&#8217;ll see.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve never understood the black community on this one except by understanding it through the lens of religion. That&#8217;s when I&#8217;m being charitable &#8211; and I am most of the time. Otherwise it&#8217;s just bigoted homophobia.</p>
<p>@Amanda: I appreciate what you&#8217;re saying, but as we saw today with the Inauguration, words have power. Writing them and speaking them is powerful. But action is required, as well.</p>
<p>@Steve: I&#8217;ll defer to Jamie on this one, since he said pretty much what I was going to say. I do appreciate you leaving a reasoned dissent, though I disagree with your conclusion or premises.</p>
<p>@Sonia: Thanks. I think it&#8217;s harder a harder struggle in some ways. You can&#8217;t hide your race or gender, and no one expects that you should. There&#8217;s absolutely nothing (behaviorally) you can do about it. </p>
<p>But you can hide your sexuality, and there are many people that think you should &#8211; presuming it&#8217;s not the right one. So we see so many unhappy people living lives that don&#8217;t fit them just because they can. And they replace the hurt that society would given them with the hurt they give themselves.</p>
<p>It is only a matter of time before this is no longer an issue. But there&#8217;s still a lot of struggle between now and that time.</p>
<p>@Jamie: Thanks so much for addressing this for me. You nailed it.</p>
<p>I actually don&#8217;t think his points took away &#8211; I think they proved the point. Would Dr. King seriously want people to live in a world in which they hate themselves because we refuse to recognize their humanity? If so &#8211; then I&#8217;d have to accuse him of bad faith; he&#8217;d be on the wrong side of history. Who knows? But I have hope that he&#8217;d live up to his own words.</p>
<p>@Christy: Thanks for coming here to comment and being here with us. And the only reason I drew out the me/you distinction was to get the &#8220;he only cares because he&#8217;s gay&#8221; thing out of the way quickly.</p>
<p>We both love. We both hurt. We both want to uplift our fellow beings. We&#8217;re far more &#8220;we&#8221; than we are &#8220;me and you&#8221; in everything that matters.</p>
<p>p.s. I know you didn&#8217;t intend to draw that line, but I&#8217;m glad you did, since I didn&#8217;t say that our common humanity unites us more than our different sexuality divides us in the essay. I guess I can change that.</p>
<p>@Lisa: Thanks! I always appreciate compliments, but especially from talented writers. Yes, I mean the both of you.</p>
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		<title>By: Lisa Firke</title>
		<link>http://www.productiveflourishing.com/letter-from-lincoln-in-memoriam-of-dr-king/#comment-2344</link>
		<dc:creator>Lisa Firke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Jan 2009 22:20:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.productiveflourishing.com/?p=1270#comment-2344</guid>
		<description>What Sonia said, Charlie. Exactly what Sonia, so perfectly, said. 

Well done.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What Sonia said, Charlie. Exactly what Sonia, so perfectly, said. </p>
<p>Well done.</p>
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		<title>By: christy</title>
		<link>http://www.productiveflourishing.com/letter-from-lincoln-in-memoriam-of-dr-king/#comment-2342</link>
		<dc:creator>christy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Jan 2009 19:49:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.productiveflourishing.com/?p=1270#comment-2342</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not nearly as nice as Jamie as it regards people like Steve. But perhaps that&#039;s because I don&#039;t take kindly to propagation of lies.

1. You clearly don&#039;t know your Bible. I do. Greek and Hebrew. Until you actually learn what the text actually says (as opposed to what you&#039;ve been told it says), please stop making asinine assertions in public.

2. Statical proof please? Sources? I know of no studies or other actual data that provides proof of your assertion. Particularly the drug assertion. And I know the life expectancy assertion is flat out wrong. Poverty kills far more often and readily than being gay.

3. Unhappiness. Well, you have a small point there. But let&#039;s see ... spat upon, thrown out by your parents, kicked, beaten, called names, denied employment, denied basic legal rights ... what&#039;s there to be happy about? There is also a mountain of study evidence to suggest that once same-sex folks have equal rights their base happiness goes up markedly. Call me silly, but I think there *might* be a correlation.

And so that I&#039;m not just pointing out Steve for the malicious individual he is, the person who said that being gay is a choice makes me want to spit fire in her/his general direction - preferably when she/he is pumping gas.

Why on earth would ANYONE &lt;b&gt;choose&lt;/b&gt; to be shat upon the way our society does to gays? Why oh why?

Please, common sense, compassion, education. Three tenants that appear to be in shorter and shorter supply.

Charlie, thank you for writing this. I&#039;m one of &quot;them&quot; and I always smile when one of &quot;you&quot; stands with us.

&lt;abbr&gt;&lt;em&gt;christys last blog post..&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.twitchinggreymatter.com/?p=22&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Rumi and President Obama&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/abbr&gt;&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not nearly as nice as Jamie as it regards people like Steve. But perhaps that&#8217;s because I don&#8217;t take kindly to propagation of lies.</p>
<p>1. You clearly don&#8217;t know your Bible. I do. Greek and Hebrew. Until you actually learn what the text actually says (as opposed to what you&#8217;ve been told it says), please stop making asinine assertions in public.</p>
<p>2. Statical proof please? Sources? I know of no studies or other actual data that provides proof of your assertion. Particularly the drug assertion. And I know the life expectancy assertion is flat out wrong. Poverty kills far more often and readily than being gay.</p>
<p>3. Unhappiness. Well, you have a small point there. But let&#8217;s see &#8230; spat upon, thrown out by your parents, kicked, beaten, called names, denied employment, denied basic legal rights &#8230; what&#8217;s there to be happy about? There is also a mountain of study evidence to suggest that once same-sex folks have equal rights their base happiness goes up markedly. Call me silly, but I think there *might* be a correlation.</p>
<p>And so that I&#8217;m not just pointing out Steve for the malicious individual he is, the person who said that being gay is a choice makes me want to spit fire in her/his general direction &#8211; preferably when she/he is pumping gas.</p>
<p>Why on earth would ANYONE <b>choose</b> to be shat upon the way our society does to gays? Why oh why?</p>
<p>Please, common sense, compassion, education. Three tenants that appear to be in shorter and shorter supply.</p>
<p>Charlie, thank you for writing this. I&#8217;m one of &#8220;them&#8221; and I always smile when one of &#8220;you&#8221; stands with us.</p>
<p><abbr><em>christys last blog post..<a href="http://www.twitchinggreymatter.com/?p=22" rel="nofollow">Rumi and President Obama</a></em></abbr></p>
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		<title>By: Jamie Dunford</title>
		<link>http://www.productiveflourishing.com/letter-from-lincoln-in-memoriam-of-dr-king/#comment-2341</link>
		<dc:creator>Jamie Dunford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Jan 2009 18:09:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.productiveflourishing.com/?p=1270#comment-2341</guid>
		<description>Without casting dispersions on Steve who commented before me, I have a few problems with the arguments he made. 

1) The bible mentions a number of different things as acceptable that we no longer follow (women&#039;s rights come to mind). As a Christian I believe God wants us to use the brains He gave us, and recognize what still works and what no longer works. 

2) and 3) If your rights were consistently withheld, I suspect you would not be the happiest person on earth either. And unfortunately, a lot of people who are unhappy turn to drug or alcohol abuse, which in turn affects their health and life expectancy (assuming the above statistic is even true). I would hazard a bet that the poor are generally less happy than their economically endowed counterparts, but I would never expect to hear the argument that the poor don&#039;t deserve rights because they are unhappy.

I don&#039;t want to turn this into a soapbox, and like I said I don&#039;t know Steve and am not looking to attack anyone&#039;s beliefs, but this was an excellent essay and I think the faulty logic in Steve&#039;s comment needs to be pointed out. I think the points brought up take away from what Charlie was trying to say.

&lt;abbr&gt;&lt;em&gt;Jamie Dunfords last blog post..&lt;a href=&quot;http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/Ittybiz/~3/514349373/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Skip School and Learn What You Need to Know Instead&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/abbr&gt;&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Without casting dispersions on Steve who commented before me, I have a few problems with the arguments he made. </p>
<p>1) The bible mentions a number of different things as acceptable that we no longer follow (women&#8217;s rights come to mind). As a Christian I believe God wants us to use the brains He gave us, and recognize what still works and what no longer works. </p>
<p>2) and 3) If your rights were consistently withheld, I suspect you would not be the happiest person on earth either. And unfortunately, a lot of people who are unhappy turn to drug or alcohol abuse, which in turn affects their health and life expectancy (assuming the above statistic is even true). I would hazard a bet that the poor are generally less happy than their economically endowed counterparts, but I would never expect to hear the argument that the poor don&#8217;t deserve rights because they are unhappy.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t want to turn this into a soapbox, and like I said I don&#8217;t know Steve and am not looking to attack anyone&#8217;s beliefs, but this was an excellent essay and I think the faulty logic in Steve&#8217;s comment needs to be pointed out. I think the points brought up take away from what Charlie was trying to say.</p>
<p><abbr><em>Jamie Dunfords last blog post..<a href="http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/Ittybiz/~3/514349373/" rel="nofollow">Skip School and Learn What You Need to Know Instead</a></em></abbr></p>
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		<title>By: Sonia Simone &#124; Remarkable Communication</title>
		<link>http://www.productiveflourishing.com/letter-from-lincoln-in-memoriam-of-dr-king/#comment-2340</link>
		<dc:creator>Sonia Simone &#124; Remarkable Communication</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Jan 2009 18:06:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.productiveflourishing.com/?p=1270#comment-2340</guid>
		<description>Good on you for this, Charlie. It&#039;s  no easier a struggle, no less noble a struggle, and ignorance is all around us. Thank you for standing up.

Just as ignorance and fear (slowly, so painfully slowly) toppled with the civil rights movement, so they will with this chapter.

&lt;abbr&gt;&lt;em&gt;Sonia Simone &#124; Remarkable Communications last blog post..&lt;a href=&quot;http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/TheRemarkableCommunicationBlog/~3/513264939/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;The Mad Ninja Skill for Getting Anything Done&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/abbr&gt;&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good on you for this, Charlie. It&#8217;s  no easier a struggle, no less noble a struggle, and ignorance is all around us. Thank you for standing up.</p>
<p>Just as ignorance and fear (slowly, so painfully slowly) toppled with the civil rights movement, so they will with this chapter.</p>
<p><abbr><em>Sonia Simone | Remarkable Communications last blog post..<a href="http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/TheRemarkableCommunicationBlog/~3/513264939/" rel="nofollow">The Mad Ninja Skill for Getting Anything Done</a></em></abbr></p>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://www.productiveflourishing.com/letter-from-lincoln-in-memoriam-of-dr-king/#comment-2339</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Jan 2009 04:50:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.productiveflourishing.com/?p=1270#comment-2339</guid>
		<description>M.L. King would not be with you on this one, for several reasons: 1) God is not with you; numerous places in the Bible mention that homosexuality is wrong -don&#039;t water it down 2) Homosexuals have some of the worst records on drug use, have poor health, and the lowest life expectancy of almost any group 3) to top it off, studies show homosexuals are not even happy. Nevertheless, life is not easy and family histories are often miserable precursors to many of our poor choices. But as tempting as it is to use a successful Christian as a supporter, I don&#039;t think it works here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>M.L. King would not be with you on this one, for several reasons: 1) God is not with you; numerous places in the Bible mention that homosexuality is wrong -don&#8217;t water it down 2) Homosexuals have some of the worst records on drug use, have poor health, and the lowest life expectancy of almost any group 3) to top it off, studies show homosexuals are not even happy. Nevertheless, life is not easy and family histories are often miserable precursors to many of our poor choices. But as tempting as it is to use a successful Christian as a supporter, I don&#8217;t think it works here.</p>
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