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	<title>Comments on: Dirty Hands and Personal Development</title>
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	<description>The Art of Meaningful Action</description>
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		<title>By: Charlie</title>
		<link>http://www.productiveflourishing.com/dirty-hands-and-personal-development/#comment-2664</link>
		<dc:creator>Charlie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Mar 2009 22:36:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.productiveflourishing.com/?p=159#comment-2664</guid>
		<description>@Emma: Wonderful comment that I think is dead on! And I also think you&#039;re right about moral philosophy missing that people are different - in many ways, that&#039;s why I started digging virtue ethics (I&#039;m writing my dissertation on it, and something close to what you&#039;ve said is one of the positive desiderata of virtue ethics that deserves more consideration.)

The difficulty is making the distinction between relativism and contextualism. We don&#039;t want to say that what&#039;s right for you is right, but we also have to have a nuanced normative theory that allows for different responsibilities and relations to give the different moral evaluations that seem intuitive and salient.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Emma: Wonderful comment that I think is dead on! And I also think you&#8217;re right about moral philosophy missing that people are different &#8211; in many ways, that&#8217;s why I started digging virtue ethics (I&#8217;m writing my dissertation on it, and something close to what you&#8217;ve said is one of the positive desiderata of virtue ethics that deserves more consideration.)</p>
<p>The difficulty is making the distinction between relativism and contextualism. We don&#8217;t want to say that what&#8217;s right for you is right, but we also have to have a nuanced normative theory that allows for different responsibilities and relations to give the different moral evaluations that seem intuitive and salient.</p>
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		<title>By: Emma McCreary</title>
		<link>http://www.productiveflourishing.com/dirty-hands-and-personal-development/#comment-2636</link>
		<dc:creator>Emma McCreary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Mar 2009 20:46:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.productiveflourishing.com/?p=159#comment-2636</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve wondered about this topic too, and the conclusion I&#039;ve come to is that there isn&#039;t a &quot;right&quot; thing, there&#039;s what each person can tolerate and is right for them. I am not able to tolerate much moral ambiguity, so I wouldn&#039;t be able to stay in the BSA. I always gravitate toward making my own cultural forms, etc. However, I also admire people who can stay in organizations and change them from within. And I also think the BSA does a lot of good for a lot of people in the ways you have mentioned, and I think that staying in and being an example of open-mindedness and tolerance and leadership in that way would be a great thing to do as well.

I think that both types of people or choices change things for the better. It&#039;s just about figuring out who &lt;i&gt;you&lt;/i&gt; are and what is right for you - not on the basis of external morality rules or ideas, but based on internal measure of what feels more alive for you. Both are good choices and meet different needs.

In general I think that morality and ethical philosophy often misses that people are different. Something may be &quot;the right thing&quot; on paper but if you can&#039;t live it, it&#039;s not going to work. On the other hand, something may be morally gray all over the place, but you end up serving a really important need as an example of a person of integrity in a situation that needs that kind of leadership. What is important IMHO is to look inside, sit with all the realities of the situation, and follow that internal nudge of &quot;this is the right contribution for me to make here&quot;.

&lt;abbr&gt;&lt;em&gt;Emma McCrearys last blog post..&lt;a href=&quot;http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/taoofprosperity/~3/539032949/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Popularity vs. Life: Following Your Internal Nudges&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/abbr&gt;&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve wondered about this topic too, and the conclusion I&#8217;ve come to is that there isn&#8217;t a &#8220;right&#8221; thing, there&#8217;s what each person can tolerate and is right for them. I am not able to tolerate much moral ambiguity, so I wouldn&#8217;t be able to stay in the BSA. I always gravitate toward making my own cultural forms, etc. However, I also admire people who can stay in organizations and change them from within. And I also think the BSA does a lot of good for a lot of people in the ways you have mentioned, and I think that staying in and being an example of open-mindedness and tolerance and leadership in that way would be a great thing to do as well.</p>
<p>I think that both types of people or choices change things for the better. It&#8217;s just about figuring out who <i>you</i> are and what is right for you &#8211; not on the basis of external morality rules or ideas, but based on internal measure of what feels more alive for you. Both are good choices and meet different needs.</p>
<p>In general I think that morality and ethical philosophy often misses that people are different. Something may be &#8220;the right thing&#8221; on paper but if you can&#8217;t live it, it&#8217;s not going to work. On the other hand, something may be morally gray all over the place, but you end up serving a really important need as an example of a person of integrity in a situation that needs that kind of leadership. What is important IMHO is to look inside, sit with all the realities of the situation, and follow that internal nudge of &#8220;this is the right contribution for me to make here&#8221;.</p>
<p><abbr><em>Emma McCrearys last blog post..<a href="http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/taoofprosperity/~3/539032949/" rel="nofollow">Popularity vs. Life: Following Your Internal Nudges</a></em></abbr></p>
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		<title>By: Make a Difference: Imagine, Then Act! &#124; Productive Flourishing</title>
		<link>http://www.productiveflourishing.com/dirty-hands-and-personal-development/#comment-608</link>
		<dc:creator>Make a Difference: Imagine, Then Act! &#124; Productive Flourishing</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 May 2008 00:14:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.productiveflourishing.com/?p=159#comment-608</guid>
		<description>[...] didn&#8217;t really explain any of this when I wrote about the Problem of Dirty Hands, so the tone of that post perhaps make me sound as if I take myself, and my efforts, way too [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] didn&#8217;t really explain any of this when I wrote about the Problem of Dirty Hands, so the tone of that post perhaps make me sound as if I take myself, and my efforts, way too [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Charles Gilkey</title>
		<link>http://www.productiveflourishing.com/dirty-hands-and-personal-development/#comment-576</link>
		<dc:creator>Charles Gilkey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 May 2008 19:40:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.productiveflourishing.com/?p=159#comment-576</guid>
		<description>@ Kelly: You&#039;re right that having your values in line with your actions is an amazing feeling.  If you can do that successfully on a day to day basis, then there&#039;s not much need for productivity systems and such - I think that&#039;s why so many of us look for systems that help us integrate our values and our actions.

It&#039;s hard with the Scouting thing because I feel good and happy about working with and helping the individual Scouts but not being part of the BSA.  Thus, my values conflict in two different ways: one&#039;s about individual actions, and the other is about group involvement.  In this case, they&#039;re mutually exclusive - and it&#039;s hard to tell which should trump the other.

Thanks, as always, for sharing your wisdom.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Kelly: You&#8217;re right that having your values in line with your actions is an amazing feeling.  If you can do that successfully on a day to day basis, then there&#8217;s not much need for productivity systems and such &#8211; I think that&#8217;s why so many of us look for systems that help us integrate our values and our actions.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s hard with the Scouting thing because I feel good and happy about working with and helping the individual Scouts but not being part of the BSA.  Thus, my values conflict in two different ways: one&#8217;s about individual actions, and the other is about group involvement.  In this case, they&#8217;re mutually exclusive &#8211; and it&#8217;s hard to tell which should trump the other.</p>
<p>Thanks, as always, for sharing your wisdom.</p>
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		<title>By: Kelly@SHE-POWER</title>
		<link>http://www.productiveflourishing.com/dirty-hands-and-personal-development/#comment-575</link>
		<dc:creator>Kelly@SHE-POWER</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 03:52:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.productiveflourishing.com/?p=159#comment-575</guid>
		<description>Charlie

You&#039;ve brought up something that is always an interesting subject and is a conundrum we all face multiple times in our life. May I suggest that you have the answer to your question within you. You just have to open yourself up to it and not fight it.

I worked for many years in business and marketing and was faced with this issue many times in that your entire purpose in marketing is to make money and promote consumption regardless of whether it is moral, useful or necessary. I was always left with this sense that I did not contribute to society in any way whatsoever, and the more I travelled the world and spent time in third world countries, the worse I felt about how I was spending my life.

In the end I realised I was fighting myself too much and could physically feel the resistance in my body so I left and became a teacher. best decision I ever made. Having my values in line with my actions was truly liberating and I felt a lightness that I had never experienced before.

These days I have returned to freelance copy writing (I&#039;m good at it and it allows me to earn money from home and be with my son) but I focus on smaller to medium size businesses who I can feel good about helping. 

So, what I am saying in a round about way is don&#039;t just rely on your mind to tell you the answer to this dilemma. Trust your instincts and do what feels right. If you can feel happy and good about being part of the Scouts then do it. If you can&#039;t, then your decision has been made for you.

Kelly

Kelly@SHE-POWERs last blog post..&lt;a href=&quot;http://she-power.com/2008/05/06/no-im-not-dead/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;No, I&#8217;m Not Dead&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Charlie</p>
<p>You&#8217;ve brought up something that is always an interesting subject and is a conundrum we all face multiple times in our life. May I suggest that you have the answer to your question within you. You just have to open yourself up to it and not fight it.</p>
<p>I worked for many years in business and marketing and was faced with this issue many times in that your entire purpose in marketing is to make money and promote consumption regardless of whether it is moral, useful or necessary. I was always left with this sense that I did not contribute to society in any way whatsoever, and the more I travelled the world and spent time in third world countries, the worse I felt about how I was spending my life.</p>
<p>In the end I realised I was fighting myself too much and could physically feel the resistance in my body so I left and became a teacher. best decision I ever made. Having my values in line with my actions was truly liberating and I felt a lightness that I had never experienced before.</p>
<p>These days I have returned to freelance copy writing (I&#8217;m good at it and it allows me to earn money from home and be with my son) but I focus on smaller to medium size businesses who I can feel good about helping. </p>
<p>So, what I am saying in a round about way is don&#8217;t just rely on your mind to tell you the answer to this dilemma. Trust your instincts and do what feels right. If you can feel happy and good about being part of the Scouts then do it. If you can&#8217;t, then your decision has been made for you.</p>
<p>Kelly</p>
<p>Kelly@SHE-POWERs last blog post..<a href="http://she-power.com/2008/05/06/no-im-not-dead/" rel="nofollow">No, I&#8217;m Not Dead</a></p>
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		<title>By: Charles Gilkey</title>
		<link>http://www.productiveflourishing.com/dirty-hands-and-personal-development/#comment-513</link>
		<dc:creator>Charles Gilkey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 May 2008 13:22:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.productiveflourishing.com/?p=159#comment-513</guid>
		<description>@ Jonathan: That, indeed, is the very rub, because I&#039;m now wondering whether &quot;who I am&quot; is a guy that values promoting the good over being a part of group of like-minded people.  As of now, old habits have the most inertia, but the tide may be changing...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Jonathan: That, indeed, is the very rub, because I&#8217;m now wondering whether &#8220;who I am&#8221; is a guy that values promoting the good over being a part of group of like-minded people.  As of now, old habits have the most inertia, but the tide may be changing&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Quiet Rebel Writer &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Lassoed Link Love</title>
		<link>http://www.productiveflourishing.com/dirty-hands-and-personal-development/#comment-498</link>
		<dc:creator>Quiet Rebel Writer &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Lassoed Link Love</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 May 2008 19:38:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.productiveflourishing.com/?p=159#comment-498</guid>
		<description>[...] Dirty Hands and Personal Development [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Dirty Hands and Personal Development [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Mead</title>
		<link>http://www.productiveflourishing.com/dirty-hands-and-personal-development/#comment-494</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan Mead</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 May 2008 17:16:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.productiveflourishing.com/?p=159#comment-494</guid>
		<description>I think the most important thing is that you stay true to yourself.  Being a part of an organization that does good but has values you don&#039;t agree with to me, is settling.  You can still do good without compromising your own beliefs. 

Interesting article and I agree, it can be a very tough decision.

Jonathan Meads last blog post..&lt;a href=&quot;http://jonathanmead.com/2008/05/02/the-secret-there-is-no-secret/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;The Secret? There is No Secret&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the most important thing is that you stay true to yourself.  Being a part of an organization that does good but has values you don&#8217;t agree with to me, is settling.  You can still do good without compromising your own beliefs. </p>
<p>Interesting article and I agree, it can be a very tough decision.</p>
<p>Jonathan Meads last blog post..<a href="http://jonathanmead.com/2008/05/02/the-secret-there-is-no-secret/" rel="nofollow">The Secret? There is No Secret</a></p>
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		<title>By: Charles Gilkey</title>
		<link>http://www.productiveflourishing.com/dirty-hands-and-personal-development/#comment-489</link>
		<dc:creator>Charles Gilkey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 May 2008 13:03:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.productiveflourishing.com/?p=159#comment-489</guid>
		<description>@ Isabel: Aye, this problem is somewhat of an extension of the means/ends problem.  I often choose to support organizations with a religious perspective as long as that perspective doesn&#039;t demean other people and their ways of life just because those organizations can be really powerful.  Imagine the money and political pressure we could put on a problem if you could get the religious right in the U.S. to get behind world poverty or some such thing.

There&#039;s a relatively new moral theory called moral particularism that, among other things, claims that there can be no general moral rules that can be accurately be used to evaluate multiple actions or persons.  Moral pluralism, on the hand, gives features that count in favor of doing or not doing any action, but it gives no rules for determining which action to do.  If you&#039;re interested in learning more about either of the two normative theories, let me know.

Thanks for the insightful comment!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Isabel: Aye, this problem is somewhat of an extension of the means/ends problem.  I often choose to support organizations with a religious perspective as long as that perspective doesn&#8217;t demean other people and their ways of life just because those organizations can be really powerful.  Imagine the money and political pressure we could put on a problem if you could get the religious right in the U.S. to get behind world poverty or some such thing.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s a relatively new moral theory called moral particularism that, among other things, claims that there can be no general moral rules that can be accurately be used to evaluate multiple actions or persons.  Moral pluralism, on the hand, gives features that count in favor of doing or not doing any action, but it gives no rules for determining which action to do.  If you&#8217;re interested in learning more about either of the two normative theories, let me know.</p>
<p>Thanks for the insightful comment!</p>
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		<title>By: Isabel Joely Black</title>
		<link>http://www.productiveflourishing.com/dirty-hands-and-personal-development/#comment-483</link>
		<dc:creator>Isabel Joely Black</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 May 2008 21:55:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.productiveflourishing.com/?p=159#comment-483</guid>
		<description>This is a really interesting problem, not unlike the one debating whether the end justifies the means. I fall strongly into the first category, in the sense that the organisations I support have been chosen because they share my own ideological perspectives. 

As an atheist/agnostic, I avoid organisations with a religious perspective and focus my attention on those with no religious agenda. Since my interest lies largely in the support of the developing world, it&#039;s relatively easy to find organisations which have no religious agenda and have the same practical motives that I do. I&#039;m an active supporter of Amnesty International and Plan International as a result.

On the other hand, in my fiction, one of the key phrases that comes up is the problem of &quot;doing something bad to make something good happen&quot; - and actually going for it. There are times when violence becomes necessary in order to alleviate suffering: one need only look at WWII as an example of how entire countries made the decision that the actions of one country made going to war and causing the suffering of their own people in an effort to bring about greater good.

I&#039;m a fan of the idea that one should always work case by case, and assess each one on its merits.

Isabel Joely Blacks last blog post..&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.joelyblack.net/?q=node/69&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Amnar Book 1 - 4785 - Episode 10&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a really interesting problem, not unlike the one debating whether the end justifies the means. I fall strongly into the first category, in the sense that the organisations I support have been chosen because they share my own ideological perspectives. </p>
<p>As an atheist/agnostic, I avoid organisations with a religious perspective and focus my attention on those with no religious agenda. Since my interest lies largely in the support of the developing world, it&#8217;s relatively easy to find organisations which have no religious agenda and have the same practical motives that I do. I&#8217;m an active supporter of Amnesty International and Plan International as a result.</p>
<p>On the other hand, in my fiction, one of the key phrases that comes up is the problem of &#8220;doing something bad to make something good happen&#8221; &#8211; and actually going for it. There are times when violence becomes necessary in order to alleviate suffering: one need only look at WWII as an example of how entire countries made the decision that the actions of one country made going to war and causing the suffering of their own people in an effort to bring about greater good.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m a fan of the idea that one should always work case by case, and assess each one on its merits.</p>
<p>Isabel Joely Blacks last blog post..<a href="http://www.joelyblack.net/?q=node/69" rel="nofollow">Amnar Book 1 &#8211; 4785 &#8211; Episode 10</a></p>
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